Discussion:
[Tech] Is it always this slow?/kicked out of
(too old to reply)
Newsbyte
2004-12-01 14:19:59 UTC
Permalink
"I wasn't aware that you were ever "in" the project to be kicked out of
it (whatever being "in" the project means). Very few people have
@freenetproject.org email addresses, you got one because you asked for
it and because you said it would help you raise donations for the
project."

That was one reason, yes. But while I agree that it's been months since I
actively sought new sponsors, it is also true I use that emailaddress on
several pages on the website and on the wiki for people that want to ask
questions about freenet and freenethelp. If you discontinue that address, it
means that it will not work anymore. And while true it isn't used that much
(a lot of spam, though), it IS something that people can use. Or rather,
could.

"So far as I can see you no longer even use it, so I don't see why you
are whining about losing something that many people who have made a
much more significant contribution to the project than you have never
even asked for."

You have the reasons. And ofcourse people that don't ask for the
emailaccount will not whine about losing it, duh. You can't complain about
losing something you didn't have in the first place.


"I have no problem whatsoever with criticism, but I do have a problem
when it is expressed in a sarcastic and personal manner. You have a
right to say whatever you want, but I have a right not to endorse your
opinions by giving you a project email address that you don't need and
don't use."

It's not like all your posts are all that diplomatic neither, but I'll leave
it at that. I agree with the middlepart, but note that endorsing my opinions
is (or at least should) not done by giving or revoking an emailaccount. You
have the right to endorse whatever you want, but your personal feelings of
endorsement should not interfere in matters that are contrary to profesional
management.

Now, you have given some arguments this time why you think it should be
terminated, yet in the email you linked it directly to the post I made.
therefor, it is reasonable to suspect the desision is based more on personal
feelings then on rationale. Because logic does not give a valid reason why
it should be terminated: if I encounter a possible sponsor tomorrow, should
I ask the whole thing back again? And since you are unilateraly throwing the
account away, is it fair that the burden of having to change all the links I
made to the address on the site and the wiki rest on my shoulders? Based on
your opinion that I don't make much use of it...or because you got fed up
with my critisism?

I concur that I'm not seeking actively anymore, but if I encounter another
sponsor, I will still need the address, and if people send to that account,
they still have the right to expect that I answer, and changing all the
emailaddies is an unfair burden, certainly because there is no pressing
reason for it - apart possible personal feelings.

"There is nothing mature or immature about my decision to ignore you, it
is my personal preference based on the observation that most of what
you say isn't very useful, and that it is generally expressed with
extremely poor spelling and without bothering to follow even the most
rudimentary email conventions."

I agree. The immaturity does not lay in the fact that you ignore me: you are
fully entitled to that. The immaturity lies in the fact that you put a
burden upon me, possibly inconviencing others as well, because you feel
offended by my posts.

As for the spelling: I'm not even going to go that route again. I'm not
native english and I don't have an english spellchecker and I doubt I would
use it anyway. My english is good enough to be understandable, and it's way
better then what most english-speaking dudes can type in german or french.
I've once posted on an italian-freenetforum; I don't remember them
complaining about my italian, though god knows it was no doubt far worse
then my english. But spelling dosn't have anything to do with the actual
topic in any case. And about emailconventions: whatever conventions I have,
it's not asking, by email, for a response, while at the same time saying I
throw them directly in the bin.


"When did I claim to be a libertarian, how is my not endorsing your
emails in any way anti-libertarian, and what does "spicious" mean?"

If you mean to say, where did you say 'I'm a libertarian', you're right, you
didn't. Reading your blog, I would say it's libertarian in anture, though.
But feel free to say it's not.


"No, being a part of this or any project is about constructive
criticism, but not sarcastic and personal criticism directed at those
who have contributed far more to the project than you have."

My critism is related to the performance and way of development of Freenet.
In both instances, I have given constructive suggestions too, but you deny
that. And even this time, I said changing to UDP might help with the
firewall issue, so it is not like I'm only given critisism without ever
suggesting alternatives. But, after all this time, it becomes a bit
fatiguing since it never amounts to anything and the level of frustration
because of no real progress (on the end-users perspective) augments. So yes,
it is often sarcastic; ignoring it is fine, pulling the plug out of the
account for it ain't.


"Yes you have, and I am grateful to those sponsors, and to you for
finding them, but note that the total amount raised was less than
numerous individual donations the project has received. This was also
quite some time ago."

I agree, and maybe it's time for me to do an effort for a second round of
searching. The relevance of the amount, however, is unclear to me. It wasn't
as much as you've gained from DEFCON, and I'm sure there will be some that
have donated more...as I am sure there are even more that have donated less
then the total aumount I managed to get. In any case, the finances back then
weren't as rosy as now, if you remember. But no doubt it seems unimportant
and insignificant if no financial troubles are looming anymore.

"The portion of your comment which the poster found to be helpful was
not the portion that I objected to. Please explain what this means and
its relevance on a mailing list intended to help new users learn how to
use Freenet. "

It was in one and the same post. Debating partions of a post is silly;
almost in every post people will found portions that are helpfull, and parts
that are not. the question is, did the post help; if the answer is yes, then
the post is not out of place in the support section.


"Also, please explain what you are implying by suggesting
that he ask Matthew and I."

I am implying in an ironic way, that if he has trouble believing that it
works better, he should ask you or toad, since you are both being
over-optimistic in regard to how much it has 'improved' almost all of the
time.


"Yes, you are never childish..."

Maybe I am, but not to the level you are demonstrating right now. I would
not delete your emailaccount because I had dificulties with what you say.


"...oops, finger must have slipped on the paste button there, careless
me :-)"

? Was that meant as an example? A child hardly uses the concept of irony and
sarcasm.

"You were not kicked out of the project, you lost an email account that
you weren't using and that you were given for a purpose that is
no-longer relevant. You were given it because you felt you needed the
endorsement of the project to help you raise funds for the project. It
is an endorsement that many people who have contributed far more than
you do not have and have not asked for, and thus I feel you no-longer
need or deserve it."

I was and am still using it; it's on the wiki and the site; people can reach
me through it, if they need too. Deleting it will mean they can't, unless I
redo all the links, which is not a fair burden to be put on me. also, while
I'm not actively searching at the moment, it might be that I decide to go at
it again (if the 0.6 comes out, for instance), thus deleting the account is,
here too, not really beneficial. you must decide if it's an endorsement of
you personally, or of the project. In the first case, it is not surprising
you think I don't deserve it, in the latter there is no rationale to delete
it.

And, as I said, I fail to see the argument that people that did more don't
have one...they didn't *ask* for it, duh.


"Actually I couldn't resist, although I probably should have, feeding
the trolls and all that."

Ah, you've been on slashdot?

"Also, perhaps if you learned to use a spell-checker, and actually tried
quoting emails properly for a change, fewer people might want to ignore
you."

See above about spellchecking. As for quotes, I usually do a copy&paste. I
have nothing against ignoring, but I do have something against actively
terminating accounts because one feels offended.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
BlueStar88
2004-12-01 16:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Hummm... some guys talked 'bout putting things in the correct ML..
does that all really fit into 'support' ?

Just a question.

May you should do that by PM. I don't like that feelings here, even
i'm not an official member with a freenet.org address. Doing such
things in public is not professional.




Sincerely

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Nicholas Sturm
2004-12-01 16:47:01 UTC
Permalink
I need a translator for this. I don't claim to speak, read or write
anything but American English -- corrupted by living in a few too many
different sites in United States of America.
[Original Message]
Date: 12/1/2004 1:21:06 PM
Subject: [freenet-support] Re: [Tech] Is it always this slow?/kicked out
of
Hummm... some guys talked 'bout putting things in the correct ML..
does that all really fit into 'support' ?
Just a question.
May you should do that by PM. I don't like that feelings here, even
i'm not an official member with a freenet.org address. Doing such
things in public is not professional.
Sincerely
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at
http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
BlueStar88
2004-12-01 17:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicholas Sturm
I need a translator for this. I don't claim to speak, read or write
anything but American English -- corrupted by living in a few too many
different sites in United States of America.
Do that in error free german and we can discuss about.

Not all people on your computer are natural english speaking. I'm
trying my best, but sorry, i forgot, you US guys like to tend to
think there are only US guys around with the highest level of
language evolution and the rest are non-developed 3rd world people.
Another flamewar is going to begin.. baahh ;-)

I was just going to say, that flamewars on project support
mailing-lists are not professional and should better be done by
private mail.

And that is just and only a suggestion.



Sincerely




PS: By the way .. i have some difficulties to understand the last
part of your sentence above.. but that's my problem i think

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-02 17:45:56 UTC
Permalink
"Some guys talked about putting things [discussions?] onto the correct
mailing lists.. does that [discussion] really fit into [this list]?

Just a question.

Maybe you should do [this flame-war or debate] by private messages. I
don't like the feelings here, even if I'm not an official member with a
freenetproject.org address. Doing [flamewars] in public is not
professional."

Does that make more sense?
Post by Nicholas Sturm
I need a translator for this. I don't claim to speak, read or write
anything but American English -- corrupted by living in a few too many
different sites in United States of America.
[Original Message]
Date: 12/1/2004 1:21:06 PM
Subject: [freenet-support] Re: [Tech] Is it always this slow?/kicked out
of
Hummm... some guys talked 'bout putting things in the correct ML..
does that all really fit into 'support' ?
Just a question.
May you should do that by PM. I don't like that feelings here, even
i'm not an official member with a freenet.org address. Doing such
things in public is not professional.
Sincerely
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at
http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Newsbyte
2004-12-01 20:48:15 UTC
Permalink
"I was just going to say, that flamewars on project support
mailing-lists are not professional and should better be done by
private mail."

Maybe. But that's difficult to do if you are asked to respond but told your
email is going directly going to the bin.

Besides, when talking about non-professionalism on the lists, I've seen
worse. ;-)

I concur with the rest of your post.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Phillip Hutchings
2004-12-01 21:57:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:19:59 +0100, Newsbyte <newsbyte-o/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
[cut for brevity]

In my time watching this list, which is well over a year now, I don't
actually recall you making a valid contribution to the project. I do
tend to read your emails, though it can be a struggle at times, and
all I normally see is this:
* Freenet's too slow
* I don't like <person> (frequently Ian)
* Whine whine whine

Now, personally I don't find Freenet slow. That may be because my node
is sitting on a basically unmetered 10Mbps half duplex connection, but
it may not. I take the goals of the project in to consideration, and
waiting 2-3 minutes for a text document to download isn't that bad.

Now, if only Java was less resource intensive... If I could run
Freenet in 128MB of RAM sucessfully the other users of the machine
would be happy. As it is, it takes 160MB, which isn't too bad.
--
Phillip Hutchings
http://www.sitharus.com/
sitharus-***@public.gmane.org / sitharus-QrR4M9swfipWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Someone
2004-12-01 22:37:52 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Phillip Hutchings schrieb:

| On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:19:59 +0100, Newsbyte
<newsbyte-o/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
| [cut for brevity]
|
| In my time watching this list, which is well over a year now, I don't
| actually recall you making a valid contribution to the project. I do
| tend to read your emails, though it can be a struggle at times, and
| all I normally see is this:
| * Freenet's too slow
| * I don't like <person> (frequently Ian)
| * Whine whine whine

Yes, that the same impression I got from Newsbyte and it's the reason why I
tend to ignore his posts, just like I do with other troll posts.

| Now, personally I don't find Freenet slow. That may be because my node
| is sitting on a basically unmetered 10Mbps half duplex connection, but
| it may not. I take the goals of the project in to consideration, and
| waiting 2-3 minutes for a text document to download isn't that bad.

Even on ADSL it isn't so slow. Shure it is much slower than browsing a
normal Website. But this I do expect when the data has to pass through
multiple nodes, with maybe even some ISDN or 56K users in the chain.

Newsbyte: Go back to i2p if you like it that much, or try to give some
real critics instead of just posting polemic and sarcasmic whine messages.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFBrke/5Sa8EyIJhugRAs7jAJwKJYLjMX4Nk8lwVVHM6wjnQbGJHwCePrHu
DGdByVBvHuP/xwNtk+BtxLQ=
=tfcI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Clueless
2004-12-02 01:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone
Even on ADSL it isn't so slow. Shure it is much slower than browsing a
normal Website. But this I do expect when the data has to pass through
multiple nodes, with maybe even some ISDN or 56K users in the chain.
I guess it depends on how long you had Freenet running, and how big the data
store is. On the first day, it was almost unusable for me.

Now it's better, although as I write this, all I get is "The network is busy,
please try again later" while trying to download FUQID, a program one seems to
absolutely need to download from Freenet...

The whole experience just isn't very newbie-friendly. A lot of people are
probably giving up after a few hours because they don't feel 'geeky' enough.

For a start, I think it would be good to have a current version of the important
programs on the http://www.freenetproject.org/index.php?page=download page.
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
evolution-JzQNb+
2004-12-02 03:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Why is it only the "clueless" new user who's talking about Freenet on this
Freenet mailing list right now?

-todd
Post by Clueless
Post by Someone
Even on ADSL it isn't so slow. Shure it is much slower than browsing a
normal Website. But this I do expect when the data has to pass through
multiple nodes, with maybe even some ISDN or 56K users in the chain.
I guess it depends on how long you had Freenet running, and how big the data
store is. On the first day, it was almost unusable for me.
Now it's better, although as I write this, all I get is "The network is busy,
please try again later" while trying to download FUQID, a program one seems to
absolutely need to download from Freenet...
The whole experience just isn't very newbie-friendly. A lot of people are
probably giving up after a few hours because they don't feel 'geeky' enough.
For a start, I think it would be good to have a current version of the important
programs on the http://www.freenetproject.org/index.php?page=download page.
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-02 17:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clueless
Post by Someone
Even on ADSL it isn't so slow. Shure it is much slower than browsing a
normal Website. But this I do expect when the data has to pass through
multiple nodes, with maybe even some ISDN or 56K users in the chain.
I guess it depends on how long you had Freenet running, and how big the data
store is. On the first day, it was almost unusable for me.
That has generally been true of freenet in the past, unfortunately. We
have made some progress, but nodes not working well for newbies is
expected.
Post by Clueless
Now it's better, although as I write this, all I get is "The network is busy,
please try again later" while trying to download FUQID, a program one seems to
absolutely need to download from Freenet...
Heh. That's called an RNF. It stands for "Route Not Found". And no, you
don't need FUQID to download files from freenet; with a well established
node you can download a lot just by the web interface (set the retries
to 50 on the splitfile download forms). RNFs seem to have been on the
rise recently for some unclear reason, but there are less than there
used to be.. normally you get RNFs because you don't have enough
connections, or because your node is overloaded.. I know you have plenty
of connections...
Post by Clueless
The whole experience just isn't very newbie-friendly. A lot of people are
probably giving up after a few hours because they don't feel 'geeky' enough.
Very probably. Anything that learns can't start up instantly. We've
tried to improve it though, and maybe we can get a bit further with
that. And of course, the overall network performance is a lot lower than
it ought to be.
Post by Clueless
For a start, I think it would be good to have a current version of the important
programs on the http://www.freenetproject.org/index.php?page=download page.
Possibly. But if we distributed Frost, for example, then we get a lot
closer to "filesharing", which may have legal ramifications - especially
with Frost's current initial boards selection!
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Clueless
2004-12-02 19:41:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toad
That has generally been true of freenet in the past, unfortunately. We
have made some progress, but nodes not working well for newbies is
expected.
That's OK, as long as the newbie knows what to expect. I think the site says
something about "a few hours", which hasn't quite been my experience...
Oh, and the default size of the data store should be increased. A lot.
Post by Toad
Heh. That's called an RNF. It stands for "Route Not Found". And no, you
don't need FUQID to download files from freenet
...but it works much better than anything else I've tried. :-)
Post by Toad
Post by Clueless
The whole experience just isn't very newbie-friendly.
Very probably. Anything that learns can't start up instantly. We've
tried to improve it though, and maybe we can get a bit further with
that. And of course, the overall network performance is a lot lower than
it ought to be.
It's not only performance. For example, the prominently featured "Freenet Help
Index" links to an old version of Frost, which is why I couldn't get it to work
first.
Post by Toad
Possibly. But if we distributed Frost, for example, then we get a lot
closer to "filesharing", which may have legal ramifications - especially
with Frost's current initial boards selection!
You have a point there...

Thanks for your answers, all in all I'm happy now with the performance of
Freenet, I've given it 6GB to store data and it already uses 1.5GB.
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
evolution-JzQNb+
2004-12-02 19:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clueless
Thanks for your answers, all in all I'm happy now with the performance of
Freenet, I've given it 6GB to store data and it already uses 1.5GB.
This is heartening to hear. I really wonder how often we gain a user who makes
it past the initial (slow) ramp-up of node performance.

-todd

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Howard White
2004-12-02 21:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Well, on my Mac OS X 10.3.6 800Mhz iBook server with 640MB RAM, Apple's
1.4.1 JVM and 10GB Freenet store over a NAT AirPort Extreme fixed IP RCN
cable connection, Freenet is OK a lot of the time. Loads up to a 100
connections are normal. Generally, I do restart Freenet and wait only a few
minutes if I want maximum performance out of a surfing session, but I think
that's perfectly fine for betaware.

Freenet 5100 seems a little better at things. I've been using Freenet for
well over a year non-stop from my little iBook server. I also run three
PHP/MySQL PostNuke sites from 4D's WebStar V and SMTP mail on that little
guy too. Process viewer shows the CPU handling it fine most of the time.
Only Java max's the CPU at Freenet startup. I think it's kind cool to see a
little iBook talking to thousands of servers world wide all by itself.

I think I'm going to write a children's book about my little iBook.
Post by Clueless
Post by Toad
That has generally been true of freenet in the past, unfortunately. We
have made some progress, but nodes not working well for newbies is
expected.
That's OK, as long as the newbie knows what to expect. I think the site says
something about "a few hours", which hasn't quite been my experience...
Oh, and the default size of the data store should be increased. A lot.
Post by Toad
Heh. That's called an RNF. It stands for "Route Not Found". And no, you
don't need FUQID to download files from freenet
....but it works much better than anything else I've tried. :-)
Post by Toad
Post by Clueless
The whole experience just isn't very newbie-friendly.
Very probably. Anything that learns can't start up instantly. We've
tried to improve it though, and maybe we can get a bit further with
that. And of course, the overall network performance is a lot lower than
it ought to be.
It's not only performance. For example, the prominently featured "Freenet Help
Index" links to an old version of Frost, which is why I couldn't get it to work
first.
Post by Toad
Possibly. But if we distributed Frost, for example, then we get a lot
closer to "filesharing", which may have legal ramifications - especially
with Frost's current initial boards selection!
You have a point there...
Thanks for your answers, all in all I'm happy now with the performance of
Freenet, I've given it 6GB to store data and it already uses 1.5GB.
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-03 01:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clueless
Post by Toad
That has generally been true of freenet in the past, unfortunately. We
have made some progress, but nodes not working well for newbies is
expected.
That's OK, as long as the newbie knows what to expect. I think the site says
something about "a few hours", which hasn't quite been my experience...
Oh, and the default size of the data store should be increased. A lot.
Yes, Ian always exaggerates for publicity. I'm not quite sure why as it
seems to harm more than it gains us.
Post by Clueless
Post by Toad
Heh. That's called an RNF. It stands for "Route Not Found". And no, you
don't need FUQID to download files from freenet
...but it works much better than anything else I've tried. :-)
I thought you didn't have it? :)
Post by Clueless
Post by Toad
Post by Clueless
The whole experience just isn't very newbie-friendly.
Very probably. Anything that learns can't start up instantly. We've
tried to improve it though, and maybe we can get a bit further with
that. And of course, the overall network performance is a lot lower than
it ought to be.
It's not only performance. For example, the prominently featured "Freenet Help
Index" links to an old version of Frost, which is why I couldn't get it to work
first.
Not our problem, but maybe he's on the list.
Post by Clueless
Post by Toad
Possibly. But if we distributed Frost, for example, then we get a lot
closer to "filesharing", which may have legal ramifications - especially
with Frost's current initial boards selection!
You have a point there...
Thanks for your answers, all in all I'm happy now with the performance of
Freenet, I've given it 6GB to store data and it already uses 1.5GB.
Woah. You're happy with the performance of freenet? This cannot happen,
it doesn't make sense, it's against all Newsbyte's assertions, the sky
is falling... :)
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Clueless
2004-12-03 23:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toad
Post by Clueless
Post by Toad
Heh. That's called an RNF. It stands for "Route Not Found". And no, you
don't need FUQID to download files from freenet
...but it works much better than anything else I've tried. :-)
I thought you didn't have it? :)
I had left the Mozilla window with the RNF message open over night, and voila,
the next morning the prog was downloaded.
Post by Toad
Woah. You're happy with the performance of freenet? This cannot happen,
it doesn't make sense, it's against all Newsbyte's assertions, the sky
is falling... :)
Still, considering the first two or three days, he does have a point.
Post by Toad
He can't be on anything below DSL or he is happy on a Commodore.
Yes, I'm on 2 Mbit DSL.
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
evolution-JzQNb+
2004-12-02 19:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clueless
Now it's better, although as I write this, all I get is "The network is
busy, please try again later" while trying to download FUQID, a program one
seems to absolutely need to download from Freenet...
you don't need FUQID to download files from freenet
I thought he was saying that to get FUQID, you need to download it from Freenet.
Not that you need FUQID in order to download anything from Freenet.

-todd

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Newsbyte
2004-12-02 00:27:55 UTC
Permalink
"Newsbyte: Go back to i2p if you like it that much, or try to give some
real critics instead of just posting polemic and sarcasmic whine messages."

That is a stupid remark, and you know it. For someone (no pun intended) that
says I should say valuable things, you don't set the good example.

I've made the comparison between I2P and freenet, and they both have value,
as I said in the past. I agree that the level of whining has increased, but
that's mostly due to the fact that being diplomatic and giving alternatives
doesn't actually do one iota neither, while after 4 years (yes, I've been
follow the lists for so long) Freenet today isn't much better (in the
endusers sense) then it was in the 0.4 days.

The truth is, I *do* annoy people, and I'm well aware of that, but mostly
it's because they know it *is* true and I do have a point. Hah, freenet
working fast? Well, indeed, if you have T1 line or something like the other
poster said. But normal users often have a different impression, and even
when noobs come tell it on the maillist themselves, it is still being
refuted by some coders. I've been inserting my flog not long ago, it took me
one hour...do you think I invent this?

And as for never bringing any alternatives...yeah, right. I remember clearly
I made a whole list of suggestions and alternatives for improving the
end-user experience. Seems that memory is very selective. Why, only a few
days ago, I pointed to an error in the uninstaller. But hey, feel free to
ignore all that, and say I whine (not without reason in any case) about the
fact that freenet still sucks for the most part, mostly because of bad
directions that have been taken. Didn't I suggest to go for UDP and small
chunks, and leave the NGR (that, after all this time, still hasn't actually
proved it worked) if the simulations don't clearly show a benefit? Yes, I
did. But that, I suppose, is rapidly forgotten, even it's exactly the
alternatives that you claim I never gave. It's easier to say I 'just whine',
so you can regard me as a troll, instead of contemplating if I don't have
valid points.

In neither case it validates deleting my account, so that I now would have
to change all references and links to it into new ones, if people want to
contact me via the site or the wiki I run. Oh, yes, but that's all not a
'valid contribution', that's right.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Someone
2004-12-02 06:54:45 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Newsbyte schrieb:

| I've made the comparison between I2P and freenet, and they both have value,
| as I said in the past. I agree that the level of whining has increased, but
| that's mostly due to the fact that being diplomatic and giving alternatives
| doesn't actually do one iota neither, while after 4 years (yes, I've been
| follow the lists for so long) Freenet today isn't much better (in the
| endusers sense) then it was in the 0.4 days.

Now that's not true, I'm using freenet since 0.3 and there have been great
improvements to usability, speed and resource usage.

| The truth is, I *do* annoy people, and I'm well aware of that, but mostly
| it's because they know it *is* true and I do have a point. Hah, freenet
| working fast? Well, indeed, if you have T1 line or something like the other
| poster said. But normal users often have a different impression, and even
| when noobs come tell it on the maillist themselves, it is still being
| refuted by some coders. I've been inserting my flog not long ago, it took me
| one hour...do you think I invent this?

I don't have a T1. My node has a hard bandwith limit of 30 kByte/sec down and
8 kByte/sec up, this limit is enforced by the switch the machine is connected
to, so freenet can't break them. That's far away from a T1.

~From your posts I guess you haven't been running a stable node for some time,
then installed a new one and tried to insert your flog the same day. Then it
doesn't suprise me that it took quite some time. Let your node run a week with
frost (to train it) and you will see a great improvement, shure a week is a long
time, but if you take in mind that it has to learn a whole network and find some
good routes/nodes it's not that much. Since build 5099 I see specialization on
my node and insert speed is very good. I currently run 4 freesites, the smallest
about 100kB, the biggest nearly 30MB. The smallest is usually inserted within
10 Minutes. The biggest takes between 4 to 6 hours, this isn't too long for the
amount of bandwith my node is allowed to use.

| And as for never bringing any alternatives...yeah, right. I remember clearly
| I made a whole list of suggestions and alternatives for improving the
| end-user experience. Seems that memory is very selective. Why, only a few
| days ago, I pointed to an error in the uninstaller. But hey, feel free to
| ignore all that, and say I whine (not without reason in any case) about the
| fact that freenet still sucks for the most part, mostly because of bad
| directions that have been taken. Didn't I suggest to go for UDP and small
| chunks, and leave the NGR (that, after all this time, still hasn't actually
| proved it worked) if the simulations don't clearly show a benefit? Yes, I
| did. But that, I suppose, is rapidly forgotten, even it's exactly the
| alternatives that you claim I never gave. It's easier to say I 'just whine',
| so you can regard me as a troll, instead of contemplating if I don't have
| valid points.

Pointing out errors and making valid suggestions is a different thing. As for
going for UDP, this actually would have made it worse. I know you suggested
it to push holes through NAT routers, but this doesn't work on most routers
here. And this for a very simple reason, almost all (yes even the low end
cheap trash ones) routers you can get here have full SPI. So it isn't possible
to push a hole into their NAT, what's even worse is that the cheaper ones
have SPI, but only allow to open or redirect TCP ports, not UPD ports. So going
to UDP would have ruled out users with one of these routers, even if they knew
how to open/forward the listen port. The only thing that might help with this
is to support UPNP. But it wouldn't change much, because ppl always get told
that UPNP is a security risk, and they tend to believe it and disable it.

As for small chunks, IIRC it was suggested by Toad not by you. You only agreed
that it might be usefull, just like I did.

And I also did run a node pre NGR, and I saw a great improvement when switching
it over to NGR last year.

| In neither case it validates deleting my account, so that I now would have
| to change all references and links to it into new ones, if people want to
| contact me via the site or the wiki I run. Oh, yes, but that's all not a
| 'valid contribution', that's right.

Oh, how bad. You have to edit some lines of HTML or change some entrys in a DB,
this will be the end of the world. :-P
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFBrrw15Sa8EyIJhugRAkmrAJ4qUsKE/W+3kVP0GK89VNd+UR9nMwCghvdv
9mRM7JJEsURjoWj6mh4HS60=
=chit
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-02 17:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone
~From your posts I guess you haven't been running a stable node for some time,
then installed a new one and tried to insert your flog the same day. Then it
doesn't suprise me that it took quite some time. Let your node run a week with
frost (to train it) and you will see a great improvement, shure a week is a long
time, but if you take in mind that it has to learn a whole network and find some
good routes/nodes it's not that much. Since build 5099 I see specialization on
my node and insert speed is very good. I currently run 4 freesites, the smallest
about 100kB, the biggest nearly 30MB. The smallest is usually inserted within
10 Minutes. The biggest takes between 4 to 6 hours, this isn't too long for the
amount of bandwith my node is allowed to use.
This is IMHO a major problem for the project at present: the learning
time. I don't think that this will be really solved short of fixed size
small chunks. But we have some way to go before we can do that; I don't
think we should do it before 0.6.
Post by Someone
| And as for never bringing any alternatives...yeah, right. I remember clearly
| I made a whole list of suggestions and alternatives for improving the
| end-user experience. Seems that memory is very selective. Why, only a few
| days ago, I pointed to an error in the uninstaller. But hey, feel free to
| ignore all that, and say I whine (not without reason in any case) about the
| fact that freenet still sucks for the most part, mostly because of bad
| directions that have been taken. Didn't I suggest to go for UDP and small
| chunks, and leave the NGR (that, after all this time, still hasn't actually
| proved it worked) if the simulations don't clearly show a benefit? Yes, I
| did. But that, I suppose, is rapidly forgotten, even it's exactly the
| alternatives that you claim I never gave. It's easier to say I 'just whine',
| so you can regard me as a troll, instead of contemplating if I don't have
| valid points.
Pointing out errors and making valid suggestions is a different thing. As for
going for UDP, this actually would have made it worse. I know you suggested
it to push holes through NAT routers, but this doesn't work on most routers
here. And this for a very simple reason, almost all (yes even the low end
cheap trash ones) routers you can get here have full SPI. So it isn't possible
to push a hole into their NAT, what's even worse is that the cheaper ones
have SPI, but only allow to open or redirect TCP ports, not UPD ports. So going
to UDP would have ruled out users with one of these routers, even if they knew
how to open/forward the listen port. The only thing that might help with this
is to support UPNP. But it wouldn't change much, because ppl always get told
that UPNP is a security risk, and they tend to believe it and disable it.
There are a lot of different ways to support hole-punching through
firewalls. Simultaneous connect is one option, UP&P is another, UDP is a
third. Some of these will eventually be implemented, but are not a
priority at the moment.
Post by Someone
As for small chunks, IIRC it was suggested by Toad not by you. You only agreed
that it might be usefull, just like I did.
And I also did run a node pre NGR, and I saw a great improvement when switching
it over to NGR last year.
Really? Interesting...
Post by Someone
| In neither case it validates deleting my account, so that I now would have
| to change all references and links to it into new ones, if people want to
| contact me via the site or the wiki I run. Oh, yes, but that's all not a
| 'valid contribution', that's right.
Oh, how bad. You have to edit some lines of HTML or change some entrys in a DB,
this will be the end of the world. :-P
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Toad
2004-12-02 17:43:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newsbyte
"Newsbyte: Go back to i2p if you like it that much, or try to give some
real critics instead of just posting polemic and sarcasmic whine messages."
That is a stupid remark, and you know it. For someone (no pun intended) that
says I should say valuable things, you don't set the good example.
I've made the comparison between I2P and freenet, and they both have value,
as I said in the past. I agree that the level of whining has increased, but
that's mostly due to the fact that being diplomatic and giving alternatives
doesn't actually do one iota neither, while after 4 years (yes, I've been
follow the lists for so long) Freenet today isn't much better (in the
endusers sense) then it was in the 0.4 days.
That is simply not true, and you know it. Remember the DataStoreBug?
Freenet has never worked _really_ well, of course, which is why we need
to continue to develop it, but the DSB dominated network performance for
around a year. The network was still usable, but it was pretty bad, and
we lost a lot of users due to it.
Post by Newsbyte
The truth is, I *do* annoy people, and I'm well aware of that, but mostly
I concur! You do annoy people, and I'm aware of that too!
Post by Newsbyte
it's because they know it *is* true and I do have a point. Hah, freenet
working fast? Well, indeed, if you have T1 line or something like the other
poster said. But normal users often have a different impression, and even
No, the other poster talked about it working okay on DSL. It works okay
for me on cable too, although I _am_ a seednodes source, which may have
some influence on my position in the network.
Post by Newsbyte
when noobs come tell it on the maillist themselves, it is still being
refuted by some coders. I've been inserting my flog not long ago, it took me
one hour...do you think I invent this?
I have no idea why you got so many RNFs. These may be because of the
node being new? You did not tell us how many connections you had at the
time, despite being asked. But the timeouts were likely caused by FIW
being impatient. And we have a lot of feedback saying that inserts DO
work better. CofE hasn't updated his site, but he does say on TFE that
it is "working out well for me".
Post by Newsbyte
And as for never bringing any alternatives...yeah, right. I remember clearly
I made a whole list of suggestions and alternatives for improving the
end-user experience. Seems that memory is very selective. Why, only a few
days ago, I pointed to an error in the uninstaller. But hey, feel free to
ignore all that, and say I whine (not without reason in any case) about the
fact that freenet still sucks for the most part, mostly because of bad
You do whine. Sometimes you also make constructive suggestions.
Sometimes you make suggestions that you see as constructive that are in
fact simply trolling, such as the idea that we abandon most of the
codebase in favour of I2P, made worse by the fact that jrand0m has told
me that i2p is not ready for freenet's scale yet (during a discussion on
premix routing), a point I have made to you on at least one occasion.
Post by Newsbyte
directions that have been taken. Didn't I suggest to go for UDP and small
chunks, and leave the NGR (that, after all this time, still hasn't actually
Everyone suggested small chunks. I don't think you were the first person
to suggest it.
Post by Newsbyte
proved it worked) if the simulations don't clearly show a benefit? Yes, I
did. But that, I suppose, is rapidly forgotten, even it's exactly the
alternatives that you claim I never gave. It's easier to say I 'just whine',
so you can regard me as a troll, instead of contemplating if I don't have
valid points.
In neither case it validates deleting my account, so that I now would have
to change all references and links to it into new ones, if people want to
contact me via the site or the wiki I run. Oh, yes, but that's all not a
'valid contribution', that's right.
You cannot have an @freenetproject.org account because you cannot be
trusted not to use it for canvassing for funding FOR OTHER PROJECTS.
Specifically I2P.
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Newsbyte
2004-12-02 00:58:28 UTC
Permalink
Well, phillip, see my other post for your remarks, but I would wanna say
specifically one thing:

"* I don't like <person> (frequently Ian)"

Isn't true. I NEVER contend it's the person, as individual, that I dislike,
I dislike the actions and decisions a person takes, because it leads, and
has lead, to a virtual standstill in end-user usuability. Now, even that on
itself isn't that bad, because people make mistakes, but when one continues
for two years, it does become a question of when it is going to sink in that
maybe there is need to change things.

Your defence of it being fast, is just the sort of non-reality check I'm
pointing at. Dude, how many people do you think have the ability of getting
a connection like that? It's not realistic to extrapolate your situation to
others, which are in a vast majority WAY less equiped and experience enough
problems just getting it running (see posts of noobs on slashdot or even on
the maillists).

Maybe you haven't been hanging around long enough to remember, but I was one
of the first people that suggested a new testnetwork which could seriously
help in the development time in pinpointing problems...and yes, I've said
that several times, so you can call that whining, if you want, but it IS in
fact, a suggestion and an alternative - which some selectively remembering
dudes claim I never do or did - and a good one at that, because there was a
time we (at least Toad) agreed to it too. Do you here about it any longer?
Well, no, it's been put back in the freezer because it was prefered to play
with simulations that, as yet, didn't fullfill their promises neither.

Ah man, all this shite about I don't contribute anything valuable is so
lame. That what gets incorporated is forgotten (like augmenting the htl a
year ago), and that what I propose in vain and hasn't been implemented is
deemed to be mere talk, because it hasn't proven itself. Well, duh.

Certainly, I have become increasingly sarcastic, but it shows a lack of
understanding if you fail to see what is the cause of it. When you entered
the scene a year ago, when freenet was plunged into it's worst non-working
period ever, then you might have a sense that it has progressed a lot -
well, it hasn't. Not in the end-users viewpoint, anyway. Maybe for a coder,
like toad, things are different: he codes, sees the code change, implements
new things, so, in his perspective, things have become better...but IMHO,
that counts for not much, if the enduser can't benefit from it. That's not
putting a blame on the hard work of Toad, or saying 'I don't like <toad>',
as you seem to think, it's just the way it is.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Phillip Hutchings
2004-12-02 02:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newsbyte
Well, phillip, see my other post for your remarks, but I would wanna say
"* I don't like <person> (frequently Ian)"
Isn't true. I NEVER contend it's the person, as individual, that I dislike,
I dislike the actions and decisions a person takes, because it leads, and
has lead, to a virtual standstill in end-user usuability. Now, even that on
itself isn't that bad, because people make mistakes, but when one continues
for two years, it does become a question of when it is going to sink in that
maybe there is need to change things.
Well, I will give you that. We can't all agree all the time. But I
would say pointing to resources supporting your viewpoint would give
posts a better feel. Not that this is always possible.
Post by Newsbyte
Your defence of it being fast, is just the sort of non-reality check I'm
pointing at. Dude, how many people do you think have the ability of getting
a connection like that? It's not realistic to extrapolate your situation to
others, which are in a vast majority WAY less equiped and experience enough
problems just getting it running (see posts of noobs on slashdot or even on
the maillists).
Yeah, I wish I had that connection to my home. I have to live with
256/128 cable. When I ran freenet on that it wasn't too bad, but I
have a bandwidth cap.
Post by Newsbyte
Maybe you haven't been hanging around long enough to remember, but I was one
of the first people that suggested a new testnetwork which could seriously
help in the development time in pinpointing problems...and yes, I've said
that several times, so you can call that whining, if you want, but it IS in
fact, a suggestion and an alternative - which some selectively remembering
dudes claim I never do or did - and a good one at that, because there was a
time we (at least Toad) agreed to it too. Do you here about it any longer?
Well, no, it's been put back in the freezer because it was prefered to play
with simulations that, as yet, didn't fullfill their promises neither.
Yeah, I do remember. At one point I considered helping hack the
source, but it's just crazy in there. If only the protocol was
documented somewhere so I could follow it through the source.
Post by Newsbyte
Ah man, all this shite about I don't contribute anything valuable is so
lame. That what gets incorporated is forgotten (like augmenting the htl a
year ago), and that what I propose in vain and hasn't been implemented is
deemed to be mere talk, because it hasn't proven itself. Well, duh.
I've only been on the list for a year though.
Post by Newsbyte
Certainly, I have become increasingly sarcastic, but it shows a lack of
understanding if you fail to see what is the cause of it. When you entered
the scene a year ago, when freenet was plunged into it's worst non-working
period ever, then you might have a sense that it has progressed a lot -
well, it hasn't. Not in the end-users viewpoint, anyway. Maybe for a coder,
like toad, things are different: he codes, sees the code change, implements
new things, so, in his perspective, things have become better...but IMHO,
that counts for not much, if the enduser can't benefit from it. That's not
putting a blame on the hard work of Toad, or saying 'I don't like <toad>',
as you seem to think, it's just the way it is.
I know the feeling. I'm a web developer, and all the time I spend
speeding up the code in certain conditions is basically moot as far as
the boss is concerned. He's a marketer.

I actually started running a node in the 0.3 days, but I was on
dialup. Now that was horrible. I've been following it on and off since
then, but now I have a fast server it works ;)
--
Phillip Hutchings
http://www.sitharus.com/
sitharus-***@public.gmane.org / sitharus-QrR4M9swfipWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-02 17:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Hutchings
Yeah, I wish I had that connection to my home. I have to live with
256/128 cable. When I ran freenet on that it wasn't too bad, but I
have a bandwidth cap.
I feel for you. Are you in australia/new zealand? Or is there a local
monopoly provider?
Post by Phillip Hutchings
Post by Newsbyte
Maybe you haven't been hanging around long enough to remember, but I was one
of the first people that suggested a new testnetwork which could seriously
help in the development time in pinpointing problems...and yes, I've said
that several times, so you can call that whining, if you want, but it IS in
fact, a suggestion and an alternative - which some selectively remembering
dudes claim I never do or did - and a good one at that, because there was a
time we (at least Toad) agreed to it too. Do you here about it any longer?
Well, no, it's been put back in the freezer because it was prefered to play
with simulations that, as yet, didn't fullfill their promises neither.
Yeah, I do remember. At one point I considered helping hack the
source, but it's just crazy in there. If only the protocol was
documented somewhere so I could follow it through the source.
There is some documentation. But a lot of it is evolving. We're not
simply implementing a standard here. We're not writing a word processor,
or a TCP/IP stack, where everything we will do is pretty much well
known. What we are doing is closer to implementing the first TCP/IP
stack.
Post by Phillip Hutchings
Post by Newsbyte
Ah man, all this shite about I don't contribute anything valuable is so
lame. That what gets incorporated is forgotten (like augmenting the htl a
year ago), and that what I propose in vain and hasn't been implemented is
deemed to be mere talk, because it hasn't proven itself. Well, duh.
I've only been on the list for a year though.
Post by Newsbyte
Certainly, I have become increasingly sarcastic, but it shows a lack of
understanding if you fail to see what is the cause of it. When you entered
the scene a year ago, when freenet was plunged into it's worst non-working
period ever, then you might have a sense that it has progressed a lot -
well, it hasn't. Not in the end-users viewpoint, anyway. Maybe for a coder,
like toad, things are different: he codes, sees the code change, implements
new things, so, in his perspective, things have become better...but IMHO,
that counts for not much, if the enduser can't benefit from it. That's not
putting a blame on the hard work of Toad, or saying 'I don't like <toad>',
as you seem to think, it's just the way it is.
I know the feeling. I'm a web developer, and all the time I spend
speeding up the code in certain conditions is basically moot as far as
the boss is concerned. He's a marketer.
Other users have provided reasonably positive feedback, especially after
we recently fixed inserts.
Post by Phillip Hutchings
I actually started running a node in the 0.3 days, but I was on
dialup. Now that was horrible. I've been following it on and off since
then, but now I have a fast server it works ;)
:)
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
BAKEMAN
2004-12-02 01:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Jesus,
If anything gave me a bad taste in my mouth other than freenet's
terrible speed and reliablility, it's this current argument. Good luck in
the future, maybe I'll be back when this doesn't remind me of a
dysfunction family.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-02 17:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newsbyte
Well, phillip, see my other post for your remarks, but I would wanna say
"* I don't like <person> (frequently Ian)"
Isn't true. I NEVER contend it's the person, as individual, that I dislike,
I dislike the actions and decisions a person takes, because it leads, and
has lead, to a virtual standstill in end-user usuability. Now, even that on
itself isn't that bad, because people make mistakes, but when one continues
for two years, it does become a question of when it is going to sink in that
maybe there is need to change things.
Your defence of it being fast, is just the sort of non-reality check I'm
pointing at. Dude, how many people do you think have the ability of getting
a connection like that? It's not realistic to extrapolate your situation to
others, which are in a vast majority WAY less equiped and experience enough
problems just getting it running (see posts of noobs on slashdot or even on
the maillists).
30kB/sec down and 8kB/sec up is what he said. That's a standard 1024/128
broadband connection just about anywhere; most are faster.
Post by Newsbyte
Maybe you haven't been hanging around long enough to remember, but I was one
of the first people that suggested a new testnetwork which could seriously
help in the development time in pinpointing problems...and yes, I've said
that several times, so you can call that whining, if you want, but it IS in
fact, a suggestion and an alternative - which some selectively remembering
dudes claim I never do or did - and a good one at that, because there was a
time we (at least Toad) agreed to it too. Do you here about it any longer?
Well, no, it's been put back in the freezer because it was prefered to play
with simulations that, as yet, didn't fullfill their promises neither.
Well, you're not complaining about it at the moment, are you? Your
recent posts mostly haven't talked about the test network.
Post by Newsbyte
Ah man, all this shite about I don't contribute anything valuable is so
lame. That what gets incorporated is forgotten (like augmenting the htl a
year ago), and that what I propose in vain and hasn't been implemented is
deemed to be mere talk, because it hasn't proven itself. Well, duh.
Augmenting the HTL?
Post by Newsbyte
Certainly, I have become increasingly sarcastic, but it shows a lack of
understanding if you fail to see what is the cause of it. When you entered
the scene a year ago, when freenet was plunged into it's worst non-working
period ever, then you might have a sense that it has progressed a lot -
well, it hasn't. Not in the end-users viewpoint, anyway. Maybe for a coder,
like toad, things are different: he codes, sees the code change, implements
new things, so, in his perspective, things have become better...but IMHO,
that counts for not much, if the enduser can't benefit from it. That's not
putting a blame on the hard work of Toad, or saying 'I don't like <toad>',
as you seem to think, it's just the way it is.
Saying "freenet sucks, it's gotten worse, it'll never get better", and
implying that this is because of the people building it, is not helpful.
Saying and implying it to newbies when we are particularly vulnerable
due to our slow initial performance due to freenet taking a while to
learn where stuff is is particularly unhelpful, and not compatible with
being allowed to represent the project by having an @freenetproject.org
address.
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Nicholas Sturm
2004-12-02 04:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for your help. I assume that to mean you
did not have something important to say to anyone
except the person you were answering. I still need
a translator. I did not understand some of the
abbreviation, or that was my presumption. I do
read all message that look like they are using
English words, but in this case the choice or
sequencing of the tokens left me guessing in
two many segments.

But, nothing tried, nothing gained.

Have a good day in German. I neglect
to attempt writing in languages that I did
not learn before the age of seventy.
[Original Message]
Date: 12/1/2004 2:23:56 PM
Subject: [freenet-support] Re: [Tech] Is it always this slow?/kicked out
of
Post by Nicholas Sturm
I need a translator for this. I don't claim to speak, read or write
anything but American English -- corrupted by living in a few too many
different sites in United States of America.
Do that in error free german and we can discuss about.
Not all people on your computer are natural english speaking. I'm
trying my best, but sorry, i forgot, you US guys like to tend to
think there are only US guys around with the highest level of
language evolution and the rest are non-developed 3rd world people.
Another flamewar is going to begin.. baahh ;-)
I was just going to say, that flamewars on project support
mailing-lists are not professional and should better be done by
private mail.
And that is just and only a suggestion.
Sincerely
PS: By the way .. i have some difficulties to understand the last
part of your sentence above.. but that's my problem i think
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at
http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Nicholas Sturm
2004-12-02 05:27:05 UTC
Permalink
No flames here, but I did not understand the message and I don't
have the advantage of analyzing on the basis of other language
forms. I suspect it was the symbols that left me in no-get-it land.
[Original Message]
Date: 12/1/2004 5:54:36 PM
Subject: [freenet-support] Re: [Tech] Is it always this slow?/kicked out
of
"I was just going to say, that flamewars on project support
mailing-lists are not professional and should better be done by
private mail."
Maybe. But that's difficult to do if you are asked to respond but told
your
email is going directly going to the bin.
Besides, when talking about non-professionalism on the lists, I've seen
worse. ;-)
I concur with the rest of your post.
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at
http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Juiceman
2004-12-02 06:03:25 UTC
Permalink
ML = Mailing List
PM = Private Message


On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 00:27:05 -0500, Nicholas Sturm
Post by Nicholas Sturm
No flames here, but I did not understand the message and I don't
have the advantage of analyzing on the basis of other language
forms. I suspect it was the symbols that left me in no-get-it land.
--
"I might not like what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it!"
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-02 17:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newsbyte
My critism is related to the performance and way of development of Freenet.
In both instances, I have given constructive suggestions too, but you deny
that. And even this time, I said changing to UDP might help with the
firewall issue, so it is not like I'm only given critisism without ever
suggesting alternatives. But, after all this time, it becomes a bit
fatiguing since it never amounts to anything and the level of frustration
because of no real progress (on the end-users perspective) augments. So yes,
it is often sarcastic; ignoring it is fine, pulling the plug out of the
account for it ain't.
There are lots of ways to help with the firewalling issue. Some of them
may eventually get implemented. However, it's possible that whatever
issue that you happen to remark on isn't a priority at the time you
remark on it. And some of your suggestions, such as rewriting Fred over
I2P, are not supported by ian, me, and the devs in general, and will not
be implemented in the foreseeable future.
Post by Newsbyte
I am implying in an ironic way, that if he has trouble believing that it
works better, he should ask you or toad, since you are both being
over-optimistic in regard to how much it has 'improved' almost all of the
time.
Did I EVER say that it would work perfectly for newbies? When?
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Newsbyte
2004-12-02 20:05:05 UTC
Permalink
"Saying "freenet sucks, it's gotten worse, it'll never get better", and
implying that this is because of the people building it, is not helpful.
Saying and implying it to newbies when we are particularly vulnerable
due to our slow initial performance due to freenet taking a while to
learn where stuff is is particularly unhelpful, and not compatible with
being allowed to represent the project by having an @freenetproject.org
address."

That's bull. You have to know what you want. Ian says (on the lists) it's
because I don't use it anymore, you say it's because I promote I2P to the
detriment of Freenet, and now says it's because I say to newbies that it
sucks.

First of all, I never said freenet should be abandonned; I say it should be
revamped to work with the underlying I2P framework. How is this, in any way,
to the detriment of Freenet? On the contrary, I believe it would save
Freenet. And Freenet *does* suck, you said so much yourself. Certainly, you
also claim it's a lot better, but I haven't seen any proof of that yet, and
I'm speaking in end-user terms, not in the amount of new code being put in.
In my experience, it's not working much better then the early 0.5 build,
before the network collapsed.

Saying to newbies it works badly when it does, can hardly be a reason to
pull out the plug on the account. You can contest how much it really sucks,
but seen the complaints of newbies and my own experiences, it's not like
*your* own experiences are the sole measurement to determine that. And you
*do* acknowledge it doesn't really work well, at least in some aspects.

The truth is mentionned in the email I received from Ian, which is: he got
pissed off by the criticism I gave. All the rest is afterwards-re-excusing
things. The account is used for letting people ask me questions about
freenet and freenethelp; do you think it's fair that this is now being
deleted, as a childish punishment because of what I say? If you want to
react, react with words, or ignore me, but actively doing an action that
supercedes free speech is going a lot further. You claim it was not helpful,
but the newbie in question finds it was, and I agree bringing the
expectations down to earth is FAR better then always claiming so
over-optimistically how improved things are.

The truth is, and you know as well as me, that it was a tit-for-tat
reaction, that supercedes the boundaries of free speech, and you know it. I
never used the account for anything else then for fondraising (which I
stopped doing since I noticed the development got stuck and things were not
improving in the newbie-end-users' perspective), and for people that contact
me with questions. So, how, exactly, does it help to delete it? Should I
re-ask installment when I go searching for sponsors again when the 0.6
version comes out? Your reaction amounts to: 'too much criticism, let's make
it clear we don't like it'; not an adult reaction, but if it stayed by
words, it would be understandable. Now, it isn't.

Even if one would be of the opinion that it's a rational, logical decision,
the LEAST you could do, was to reinstate it for a copple of weeks, so I have
the time to point people that the account isn't working anymore and to
rechange the links. (That won't help with the sponsor searching for the 0.6,
but, by your own reckoning, I won't do that, because I'm not 'helpful' (at
least you seem think so, the people that actually felt helped seem to be
conveniently forgotten).

This is not about me 'abusing' Freenet; I have put too much effort in it for
anyone to seriously suggest that; it's about you guys being pissed of by my
remarks that at least *I* (and I'm REALLY not the only one) feel are valid,
based on my own experiences and what I hear from noobs. You can disagree
with what I say, but it doesn't mean it's fair to put a burden on me and
other users, because you guys feel offended.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-03 02:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newsbyte
"Saying "freenet sucks, it's gotten worse, it'll never get better", and
implying that this is because of the people building it, is not helpful.
Saying and implying it to newbies when we are particularly vulnerable
due to our slow initial performance due to freenet taking a while to
learn where stuff is is particularly unhelpful, and not compatible with
address."
That's bull. You have to know what you want. Ian says (on the lists) it's
because I don't use it anymore, you say it's because I promote I2P to the
detriment of Freenet, and now says it's because I say to newbies that it
sucks.
There can be more than one reason.
Post by Newsbyte
First of all, I never said freenet should be abandonned; I say it should be
revamped to work with the underlying I2P framework.
What you would suggest is more or less the same thing as abandoning
Freenet. You would have us build something totally different. It might
be simpler, it might work better, it would certainly have different
attacks and it'd be based on fundamentally different principles. And
it'd be largely new code.
Post by Newsbyte
How is this, in any way,
to the detriment of Freenet? On the contrary, I believe it would save
Freenet.
Such extreme measures might conceivably conform with our ideological
objectives but they are so far away from our technical architecture as
to be a full rewrite not only of all the code and microarchitecture but
the protocol as well, the routing algorithm, and all the fundamentals.
It would no longer be Freenet. It might be necessary to start again, but
that has not yet been proven to my satisfaction, as I detail in another
mail.
Post by Newsbyte
And Freenet *does* suck, you said so much yourself. Certainly, you
also claim it's a lot better, but I haven't seen any proof of that yet, and
I'm speaking in end-user terms, not in the amount of new code being put in.
So am I. I have heard from many users that it is better than it was. And
I have heard from the newbie that it is working acceptably performance
wise. And on my own node I rarely see RNFs and can fetch a great deal of
content.
Post by Newsbyte
In my experience, it's not working much better then the early 0.5 build,
before the network collapsed.
You mean before we actually released 0.5? After it was released it was
perpetually collapsed...
Post by Newsbyte
Saying to newbies it works badly when it does, can hardly be a reason to
pull out the plug on the account. You can contest how much it really sucks,
but seen the complaints of newbies and my own experiences, it's not like
*your* own experiences are the sole measurement to determine that. And you
*do* acknowledge it doesn't really work well, at least in some aspects.
We are going round and round in circles; I have made my case and it is
not profitable to make it again.
Post by Newsbyte
The truth is mentionned in the email I received from Ian, which is: he got
pissed off by the criticism I gave. All the rest is afterwards-re-excusing
things. The account is used for letting people ask me questions about
freenet and freenethelp; do you think it's fair that this is now being
deleted, as a childish punishment because of what I say? If you want to
It is not a childish punishment. You cannot be trusted.
Post by Newsbyte
react, react with words, or ignore me, but actively doing an action that
supercedes free speech is going a lot further. You claim it was not helpful,
Disallowing you an @freenetproject.org account is hardly restricting
your freedom of speech! We are not obliged to accredit you, just as a
university is not obliged to give a PhD to a pupil who cheats. We can
give accounts to whomever it is in the interest of the project to give
accounts to. Just as we can ban trolls from the IRC channel and even the
mailing list; that's not a threat in this particular mail, nor is it a
promise, but it is merely a relevant remark.
Post by Newsbyte
but the newbie in question finds it was, and I agree bringing the
expectations down to earth is FAR better then always claiming so
over-optimistically how improved things are.
This is not about me 'abusing' Freenet; I have put too much effort in it for
anyone to seriously suggest that; it's about you guys being pissed of by my
remarks that at least *I* (and I'm REALLY not the only one) feel are valid,
based on my own experiences and what I hear from noobs. You can disagree
with what I say, but it doesn't mean it's fair to put a burden on me and
other users, because you guys feel offended.
What you are saying is "Freenet will never work unless it is rewritten
from scratch based on completely different architectures, and its
performance sucks". Given that newbie nodes always have much worse
performance initially than after they have had time to integrate, if you
can't see the likely cost of what you have said to the freenet project
in terms of new users, then you are not competent to have an
@freenetproject.org address; and if you persist in doing it then you are
not suitable to have one, because you are actively working against us.
This is far, far worse if you have an @freenetproject.org account. We
are quite able and willing to discriminate between those we endorse
with special privelidges and those we don't, and this is not a matter of
freedom of speech.
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Nicholas Sturm
2004-12-03 02:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toad
Post by Clueless
Thanks for your answers, all in all I'm happy now with the performance
of
Post by Toad
Post by Clueless
Freenet, I've given it 6GB to store data and it already uses 1.5GB.
Woah. You're happy with the performance of freenet? This cannot happen,
it doesn't make sense, it's against all Newsbyte's assertions, the sky
is falling... :)
--
He can't be on anything below DSL or he is happy on a Commodore.


_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Newsbyte
2004-12-03 11:24:23 UTC
Permalink
"There can be more than one reason."

Yes, but reasons 'afterwards' are always easily found (and even believed by
themselves). It's called 'to rationalise'. The reason why it actually got
deleted, is the reason first given in the email, which was based on an
emotional tit-for-tat reaction, and is now being rationalised by saying:
"oh, but you didn't use it anymore anyway", "you can't be trusted", etc.


"What you would suggest is more or less the same thing as abandoning
Freenet."

You make the mistake of equalling the Freenet project with the current
architecture. Surely, you can not seriously contend this is the same. In the
beginnings, freenet didn't *have* any architecture, yet the project was
there. It's the goal that counts, not the underlying architecture or
techniques used. I mean, if - by some miracle - it is acknowledged that
major parts of the software needs to be rewritten, are you then going to say
Freenet is dead? Are you going to call it something else, because you
changed the underlying architecture (which most newbie users don't care
about much anyway, as long as it does what it is supposed to do)?

Freenet is what you make of it; as long as it fulfills it's aims, it does
not matter what architecture you use to create it.


"So am I. I have heard from many users that it is better than it was. And
I have heard from the newbie that it is working acceptably performance
wise. And on my own node I rarely see RNFs and can fetch a great deal of
content."

Then the least one can say, is that there are many users that find it crap,
and many that find it better than it was. I do not think this contradicts
eachother per sé; I do not doubt that many users, who have experienced the
totally borked network in the past, indeed feel that it is better now then
in the past. 'Better' is comparing to something else; it does not say much
about the actual performance on itself.

The newbie also said I helped him, something you seem to deem irrelevant.
;-)

As for your own node: I'll answer that one with another post relating to the
performance.


"It is not a childish punishment. You cannot be trusted."

Rationalisation. You didn't delete the account; Ian did. And he did so for
the reason he mentionned in his email.


"Disallowing you an @freenetproject.org account is hardly restricting
your freedom of speech!"

It is clearly a free speech issue, if it is done because one does not like
what someone else (in this case me) is saying.

"We are not obliged to accredit you, just as a university is not obliged to
give a PhD to a pupil who cheats."

He first would have to demonstrate he cheated. *I*, on the other hand, have
demonstrated that saying that freenet still sucks (at least from the
endusers' perspective with an ordinary puter, connection and seednode), is
not besides the truth. And staying with your analogy: he could NOT, and
certainly not unilateraly, decide to revoke the PhD once he had given it to
the pupil.


"Just as we can ban trolls from the IRC channel and even the
mailing list; that's not a threat in this particular mail, nor is it a
promise, but it is merely a relevant remark."

It is not about 'being able' to do something. As libertarians (or at least
freenetters) we all know that whomever has the power, can do what he wants.
Ian 'can' pull the plug (obviously), but that has no bearing on the question
if it was fair.

"...Given that newbie nodes always have much worse
performance initially than after they have had time to integrate, if you
can't see the likely cost of what you have said to the freenet project
in terms of new users..."

Yes, well, this comes to the crux, doesn't it? Is it, because when I say
Freenet still sucks and you feel offended by it, or because I 'abuse' or
'lie' or 'work against' freenet? Is it 'against us', or against the Freenet
project? I would say that, seen my recent experimental evidence, what I say
is close to the observable truth, provided you start with what an ordinary
user would have. So how does telling the truth doing something to the
detriment and 'cost in terms of new users' of the Freenet project? Are you
suggesting I should say something contrary to experimental evidence, just to
lore in more new users? I do not describe to that idea: I think it's far
better to honestly say to newbies that they shouldn't expect much of it then
to be over-optimistic every time, like some High Gods have consistantly
done.

In fact, I think THAT is screwing the Freebie and to 'the detriment of
Freenet' and in the long term also to 'the cost of new users'. It's exactly
because of creating high expectations with the newbie that so many users
feel cheated and double dissapointed and leave Freenet, probably for good.
If we were more upfront on how bad freenet is for people that don't have
tweaked their puters, have T1 lines, are a seednode, leave their box on
24/24 7/7, etc.we might actually be benefiting Freenet far more then with
dulling them into believing all will work out great.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Toad
2004-12-04 00:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newsbyte
"There can be more than one reason."
Yes, but reasons 'afterwards' are always easily found (and even believed by
themselves). It's called 'to rationalise'. The reason why it actually got
deleted, is the reason first given in the email, which was based on an
"oh, but you didn't use it anymore anyway", "you can't be trusted", etc.
"What you would suggest is more or less the same thing as abandoning
Freenet."
You make the mistake of equalling the Freenet project with the current
architecture.
I don't consider I2P to be Freenet.
Post by Newsbyte
Surely, you can not seriously contend this is the same. In the
beginnings, freenet didn't *have* any architecture, yet the project was
there.
That is factually incorrect. Freenet started with Ian's paper.
Post by Newsbyte
It's the goal that counts, not the underlying architecture or
techniques used.
Which goal in particular? Which goal distinguishes freenet from i2p and
the other similar systems? Even Entropy? We do not have a monopoly on
trying to implement these ideas. But "Freenet" refers to a particular
implementation.
Post by Newsbyte
I mean, if - by some miracle - it is acknowledged that
major parts of the software needs to be rewritten, are you then going to say
Freenet is dead? Are you going to call it something else, because you
changed the underlying architecture (which most newbie users don't care
about much anyway, as long as it does what it is supposed to do)?
They will care if it means we have to throw away over a hundred thousand
lines of code, many years work, and start again from scratch.
Post by Newsbyte
Freenet is what you make of it; as long as it fulfills it's aims, it does
not matter what architecture you use to create it.
Then I2P is also Freenet. And so is Entropy. And perhaps even Gnunet.
Post by Newsbyte
"So am I. I have heard from many users that it is better than it was. And
I have heard from the newbie that it is working acceptably performance
wise. And on my own node I rarely see RNFs and can fetch a great deal of
content."
Then the least one can say, is that there are many users that find it crap,
and many that find it better than it was. I do not think this contradicts
eachother per s?; I do not doubt that many users, who have experienced the
totally borked network in the past, indeed feel that it is better now then
in the past. 'Better' is comparing to something else; it does not say much
about the actual performance on itself.
So? You want to set arbitrary targets?
Post by Newsbyte
The newbie also said I helped him, something you seem to deem irrelevant.
;-)
As for your own node: I'll answer that one with another post relating to the
performance.
"It is not a childish punishment. You cannot be trusted."
Rationalisation. You didn't delete the account; Ian did. And he did so for
the reason he mentionned in his email.
You can call it whatever you want. I stand by what he did, and what I
said.
Post by Newsbyte
your freedom of speech!"
It is clearly a free speech issue, if it is done because one does not like
what someone else (in this case me) is saying.
I am not preventing you from speaking. I don't believe that banning you
from this list would be restricting your freedom of speech, any more
than rejecting spams is, if you were trolling, and the sanction ian actually
used is far less than this.
Post by Newsbyte
"We are not obliged to accredit you, just as a university is not obliged to
give a PhD to a pupil who cheats."
He first would have to demonstrate he cheated. *I*, on the other hand, have
demonstrated that saying that freenet still sucks (at least from the
endusers' perspective with an ordinary puter, connection and seednode), is
not besides the truth. And staying with your analogy: he could NOT, and
certainly not unilateraly, decide to revoke the PhD once he had given it to
the pupil.
"Just as we can ban trolls from the IRC channel and even the
mailing list; that's not a threat in this particular mail, nor is it a
promise, but it is merely a relevant remark."
It is not about 'being able' to do something. As libertarians (or at least
freenetters) we all know that whomever has the power, can do what he wants.
Ian 'can' pull the plug (obviously), but that has no bearing on the question
if it was fair.
Not only we can physically, but we can MORALLY. If some asshole comes in
here and makes the lists totally unusable by his trolling, we can ban
him. Just as we HAVE in the past banned mikeeusa from #freenet on IRC.
Hobx banned him for repeatedly trolling mostly via racist and anti-women
language, which provoked considerable anger and off topic noise. This is
one reason why the signal to noise ratio was always much lower on the
#freenet on IIP; because there are no ops.
Post by Newsbyte
"...Given that newbie nodes always have much worse
performance initially than after they have had time to integrate, if you
can't see the likely cost of what you have said to the freenet project
in terms of new users..."
Yes, well, this comes to the crux, doesn't it? Is it, because when I say
Freenet still sucks and you feel offended by it, or because I 'abuse' or
'lie' or 'work against' freenet? Is it 'against us', or against the Freenet
project? I would say that, seen my recent experimental evidence, what I say
is close to the observable truth, provided you start with what an ordinary
user would have. So how does telling the truth doing something to the
detriment and 'cost in terms of new users' of the Freenet project? Are you
suggesting I should say something contrary to experimental evidence, just to
lore in more new users? I do not describe to that idea: I think it's far
better to honestly say to newbies that they shouldn't expect much of it then
to be over-optimistic every time, like some High Gods have consistantly
done.
I have explained what I object to. I object to you telling users that it
sucks, implying it won't get better, when you know full well it will get
a lot better over time, and that it always sucks to start with.
Post by Newsbyte
In fact, I think THAT is screwing the Freebie and to 'the detriment of
Freenet' and in the long term also to 'the cost of new users'. It's exactly
because of creating high expectations with the newbie that so many users
feel cheated and double dissapointed and leave Freenet, probably for good.
If we were more upfront on how bad freenet is for people that don't have
tweaked their puters, have T1 lines, are a seednode, leave their box on
24/24 7/7, etc.we might actually be benefiting Freenet far more then with
dulling them into believing all will work out great.
It is quite possible that the language on the site is overoptimistic.
That does not prove your point. And telling users that freenet sucks and
that the devs are ***holes, does not help, and given that freenet nodes
will ALWAYS, by its very architecture, suck when first born, is going to
put a lot more users off than not doing so. And I don't have a T1, and
there are many seednodes.
--
Matthew J Toseland - toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/vUmD2FQJk+8+***@public.gmane.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
Sara Mill
2004-12-05 04:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Does this seem "right"??

using 5100 stable; uptime 15 hours:

grep -c Consecutive freenet.log :==> 14512

wc -l freenet.log :==> 46269

Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 32 (8/24/40)
Transfers active (Transmitting/Receiving) 45 (11/34)

Uptime: 0 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes
Current routingTime: 0ms.
Pooled threads running jobs: 51 (42.5%)
Pooled threads which are idle: 9

Current estimated load for rate limiting: 84.8%.
Load due to thread limit = 42.5%
Load due to messageSendTimeRequest = 19.1%
Load due to routingTime = 10%
Load due to output bandwidth limiting = 84.8%
Load due to expected inbound transfers: 1%
Load due to expected outbound transfers: 0%



_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
Support-***@public.gmane.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://dodo.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:support-request-***@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...